Zaraki Kenpachi (bankai) vs Dangai Ichigo

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jonathancarlton

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@jonathancarlton said:
@highmantra_x0sp said:
@jonathancarlton said:
@highmantra_x0sp said:

@jonathancarlton: That doesn´t mean Hikone is on Ichigos speed.

Speed: FTL (Kept up and dodged attacks from the arrancars, female Sternritter) | FTL (Faster than before, can accompany Grimmjow who was in Resurrección), FTL+ with Gentei Kaijou released (Gentei Kaijou multiplies the users stats by 5, moved so fast as if time stood still), possibly Massively FTL with Resurrección (Hikone's Resurrección multiplies their stats by 5)

MFTL = 100X Lightspeed bruh. Ichigo negged Aizen who scales above Espada, CFYOW or not.

Gentei Kaijou is a power buff but it could be speed as well.

What makes Grimmjow FTL? or anybody with a Gentei Kaijou Release FTL+? You didn´t state who.

Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Despite only having one arm, he was able to block attacks and keep up with a Post-Visored Training Bankai Hollow Mask Ichigo, is fast enough to counter Ulquiorra's cero at point-blank and was able to catch him off guard to seal him away) | Massively Hypersonic (Can fight evenly with a Post-Visored Training Bankai Hollow Mask Ichigo) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Attacked Quilge Opie by surprise before he could sense him), Sub-Relativistic with Resurrección | FTL (Dodged a Getsuga Tenshō from Ginjo at point-blank, dodged a Gran Rey Cero from Luppi by a hair's breadth by changing its trajectory with his own Cero), higher with Resurrección

FTL because he dodged a Getsuga Tenshou? FTL Because he dodged a Gran rey Cero? No.

Speed: High Hypersonic (Kept up with Tōsen and Sajin. Far superior to a 4th seat Shinigami who could react to and block an attack from Orihime) | Massively Hypersonic (Kept up with Nnoitra Gilga), higher with eyepatch off (Kept up with Resurrección Nnoitra) | Massively Hypersonic (He can keep up with Byakuya), higher with eyepatch off | At least Massively Hypersonic (Superior to his Pre-Timeskip self) | At least Massively Hypersonic (Faster than before) | FTL (Comparable to Toshiro), FTL+ with Bankai (Kenpachi's Bankai multiplies his AP and Speed by 5, blitzed a God Size Gerard) | At least FTL+, possibly Massively FTL (Kept up with Hikone), higher Bankai

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mantraxsp

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@highmantra_x0sp said:
@jonathancarlton said:
@highmantra_x0sp said:
@jonathancarlton said:
@highmantra_x0sp said:

@jonathancarlton: That doesn´t mean Hikone is on Ichigos speed.

Speed: FTL (Kept up and dodged attacks from the arrancars, female Sternritter) | FTL (Faster than before, can accompany Grimmjow who was in Resurrección), FTL+ with Gentei Kaijou released (Gentei Kaijou multiplies the users stats by 5, moved so fast as if time stood still), possibly Massively FTL with Resurrección (Hikone's Resurrección multiplies their stats by 5)

MFTL = 100X Lightspeed bruh. Ichigo negged Aizen who scales above Espada, CFYOW or not.

Gentei Kaijou is a power buff but it could be speed as well.

What makes Grimmjow FTL? or anybody with a Gentei Kaijou Release FTL+? You didn´t state who.

Speed: Massively Hypersonic (Despite only having one arm, he was able to block attacks and keep up with a Post-Visored Training Bankai Hollow Mask Ichigo, is fast enough to counter Ulquiorra's cero at point-blank and was able to catch him off guard to seal him away) | Massively Hypersonic (Can fight evenly with a Post-Visored Training Bankai Hollow Mask Ichigo) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Attacked Quilge Opie by surprise before he could sense him), Sub-Relativistic with Resurrección | FTL (Dodged a Getsuga Tenshō from Ginjo at point-blank, dodged a Gran Rey Cero from Luppi by a hair's breadth by changing its trajectory with his own Cero), higher with Resurrección

FTL because he dodged a Getsuga Tenshou? FTL Because he dodged a Gran rey Cero? No.

Speed: High Hypersonic (Kept up with Tōsen and Sajin. Far superior to a 4th seat Shinigami who could react to and block an attack from Orihime) | Massively Hypersonic (Kept up with Nnoitra Gilga), higher with eyepatch off (Kept up with Resurrección Nnoitra) | Massively Hypersonic (He can keep up with Byakuya), higher with eyepatch off | At least Massively Hypersonic (Superior to his Pre-Timeskip self) | At least Massively Hypersonic (Faster than before) | FTL (Comparable to Toshiro), FTL+ with Bankai (Kenpachi's Bankai multiplies his AP and Speed by 5, blitzed a God Size Gerard) | At least FTL+, possibly Massively FTL (Kept up with Hikone), higher Bankai

He is not on Byakuya's level at all. He´s not comparable to Toshiro, he´s not FTL+ At all. He´s not MFTL at all. Thats just wank.

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mantraxsp

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deactivated-6043ec881391e

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Can anyone clarify the scalings for me (since I can't be bothered to read through the entire novel atm)?

By portrayal, Byakuya (and Toshiro) are relative to EOS Kenpachi, who's a transcendant according to manga. And yet, EOS Byakuya is stated to be below base Aizen according to the novels, who we know is not a transcendent. What gives?

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deactivated-6008a22b18991

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Mugetsu > Monster aizen ~ dangai Ichigo >>>>> the rest of bleachverse combined.

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deactivated-60144ce28bd5e

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@thousandsteps: The novels don't make much sense when it comes to scaling.

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LeoTheGreatest

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jonathancarlton

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Raziel2014

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#59  Edited By Raziel2014

@jonathancarlton said:
@leothegreatest said:

@jonathancarlton:

When was Hikone stated to be at Dangai Ichigo’s level?

In Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World novel.

i don't remember that

manga wise Dangai ichigo is leagues above Shinigami's be it Yamamoto or IChibei are nothing but ants compare to butterfly Aizen much less Dangai Ichigo who treated aizen like a toddler.

due note that Aizen as a Shinigami already had comparable Reaitsu to Yamamoto and the combined power of Shunsui/Ukitake was enough to match Yamamoto, Tokinada Reaitsu was comparable to that of EOS Byakuya and he could still not utilize Yamamoto nor Aizen Shikai to its full potential due to his lack of power this scales Shinigami Aizen above EOS Byakuya, Adult Toshiro and EOS Kenpachi

EOS Byakuya is comparable to EOS Kenpachi by merely re-reading their fight with Gerard of course this does not mean that their potential is the same, Kenpachi had no mastery over his Shikai or Bankai and the side effects also prohibid him from becoming stronger.

Shikai Kenpachi = Giant Gerard

Bankai Kenpachi = 5-10x stronger than Giant Gerard due to Bankai confirm Multiplier

Byakuya Full Power = Volstandig Gerard who is 5-10x stronger than prior, Vollstandig confirm to be comparable to a Resurrection/Bankai.

other than that good luck on trying to scale bleach, shit is a damn mess, canon wise Transcendent is a evolution in life and soul they no longer use normal Reaitsu it has changed and become something else like Changing Liquid into Solid.

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InvadedTBD

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Ichigo should take it but Kenny in Bankai definitely makes him work for it.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@leothegreatest said:

@jonathancarlton:

When was Hikone stated to be at Dangai Ichigo’s level?

In Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World novel.

I’ve read most of it and don’t recall that so can you quote it and tell say where in the novels it’s stated.

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jonathancarlton

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@jonathancarlton said:
@leothegreatest said:

@jonathancarlton:

When was Hikone stated to be at Dangai Ichigo’s level?

In Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World novel.

I’ve read most of it and don’t recall that so can you quote it and tell say where in the novels it’s stated.

It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

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mantraxsp

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It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

No Caption Provided

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aggrape

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It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

No Caption Provided

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Raziel2014

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#65  Edited By Raziel2014

@jonathancarlton said:
@leothegreatest said:
@jonathancarlton said:
@leothegreatest said:

@jonathancarlton:

When was Hikone stated to be at Dangai Ichigo’s level?

In Bleach: Can't Fear Your Own World novel.

I’ve read most of it and don’t recall that so can you quote it and tell say where in the novels it’s stated.

It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

that does not actually mean anything, anyone massively stronger than lilotto would feel ike her encounter against ichigo, if you crush an ant with a foot, a bomb or world destruction it would all feel the same to the ant.

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InvadedTBD

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It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

No Caption Provided

Lol this always has me dying.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#67  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@jonathancarlton:

It was when the female Sternritters was fighting against Hikone and Lilotto compared fighting Hikone being similar to her encounter with Ichigo.

When they fought Hikone in Hueco Mundo with the Arrancars that was never stated. Not only was it not stated it’s anywhere near Ichigo’s level but Hikone got stomped by the Quincy’s and Arrancars who didn’t even use their Resurrections which is like getting beat by Yamcha and getting compared to Goku.

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bonbonboy34

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#68  Edited By bonbonboy34

I like how people are pointing to dangai ichigo being tracended, but kenpachi was shown to be tracended as well while in base with his eye patch on when he went to fight gremmy lol. The soul reapers that where under the platform the Kenny showed up on stated how it was weird that they couldn't sense kenpachis spiritual pressure. THIS IS A BASE FORM KENPACHI WITH HIS EYE PATCH ON

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diydeath

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I like how people are pointing to dangai ichigo being tracended, but kenpachi was shown to be tracended as well while in base with his eye patch on when he went to fight gremmy lol. The soul reapers that where under the platform the Kenny showed up on stated how it was weird that they couldn't sense kenpachis spiritual pressure. THIS IS A BASE FORM KENPACHI WITH HIS EYE PATCH ON

Yeah, I've a theory there. Take it or leave it. Transcendance in Bleach is a reflection of surpassing one's own natural limitations. There's no set level at which you become a transcendance, you just max out your capability and through various means, go beyond that. In Kenpachi's case it's his special zanpakuto which probably enables this.

For Ichigo, it's his heritage being realized (in some form) and unfettered.

For Aizen it was merging with the Hogyoku.

For Hakone it was because Hakone is an abomination made from the Soul King's left over parts and given a broken, crazy powerful zanpakuto to boot.

Base EoS Kenpachi wasn't transcendent. He only reached that level in CFYOW and arguably the Gerard fight and Dangai Ichigo would absolutely murder him, Dangai is much, much faster, stronger and as evidenced by how he manhandled Aizen's Hado and fragors, much, much more durable.

I'm not even sure Kenpachi's bankai would help here because it makes him too mindless which is what you don't want vs a speed demon like Ichigo.

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Bink_69

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Ichigo wins via scaling

Kenny wins via feats

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deactivated-607707f852383

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Dangai ichigo wins

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Morningstar999

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Ichigo should win with mugetsu I think...

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Hentekorin

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Ichigo

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gdara

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Both Kenpachi with Bankai and Dangai could be argued at Multi-Continental.

But Dangai Ichigo should have better speed and is a transcendent being.

Ichigo wins.

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Wushu59

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#75 Wushu59  Online

Kenpachi by far if we use feats. Maybe Ichigo through lore.

Mugetsu with it's mystery AP.

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Number3561

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#76  Edited By Number3561  Online

Personally, Ichigo by hype and scaling to his True Shikai, which was also hyped. But there's really no way to say for sure. "Transcendence" doesn't have much meaning as a concrete power level anymore since Zaraki fought Hikone without even releasing Shikai.

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gdara

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@wushu59: I mean using pure feats is fine, but the narrative itself is just as important especially when Dangai Ichigo and Hogyoku Aizen were said to surpass all Shinigami and Hollows.

I very much doubt Bankai Kenpachi has the capability to neg diff Butterflaizen and force him to evolve to his Hydra Form just like Dangai Ichigo did.

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Wushu59

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#78 Wushu59  Online

@gdara: Cept Kenny didn't even have Shikai at this time let alone Bankai. A captain sacrificed herself just to grant Kenny his Shikai. Even after Yamamoto had already died and Ichigo with previous Dangai strength defeated by Pre-Soul King Ywatch

Monster Aizen also viewed much lower showings as impressive. Kind of hard to ignore, tbh

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#79  Edited By gdara

@wushu59: Tbf, Monster Aizen found the Mountain feat impressive was because he was literally doing it with air pressure from sword parries hundreds of meters away, and it's a DC feat nonetheless Aizen should have much much better AP than that feat by scaling to much inferior characters to him like Ulquiorra.

Tho it's fine if you think feats still take precedence, I understand that.